rootseeker.org - Comments

Comments and suggestions are welcome!

12-07-'06
AND ...

Here is another one who is very thankful for your teaching. When I discovered your classes at the Academy, I felt as if I had found a "home". The materials presented in class, the vast resources available through the website, and your excellent scholarship have propelled me on my spiritual path. For many years I had sort of "wandered around" searching for "something". Your classes offered a focus and gave me the clarity I needed, as well as the opportunity to interact with other people who are also searching in their own way. Thank you again, and Shalom! Susan Borden

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12-03-'06

Some thoughts:

This Thanksgiving Season I have felt so appreciative for all that is in my life. In view of the craziness that surrounds the holiday, I try to take some time for reflection or what I call being in the presence. One of the things that I have been thankful for is the gift of openness. It is not something that I can prove, but I know it exists. Perhaps it is grace and a deep sense of trust that has enabled me to become aware of this great and precious gift. Getting through life's difficult moments, being able to see the universal wisdom in the life process and feeling like I am a part of that process, has given me insight (another thing that I can't prove). I don't have the answers to all the questions but I do know I am meant to be exactly where I am at this particular time in my life. I believe that anyone who searches with a sincere heart, reaches the same conclusion, sooner or later. My spirit is aware of this. Perhaps, because of the Gnosticism class last spring. Mary Leisner

11-11-'06

The following statements by Dick (May) started the discussion:
"I am struck by Fowler's insight that what he terms the "Supreme Being" expresses itself "as me, "the "Higher Self" and the one I like best, his third expression of this notion - "High consciousness". ... I think what some express as "soul" or "self" is a higher state of consciousness. .... I see this state as a psychological one and perhaps an emotional one or at least a nonrational one (I do not mean "irrational"). Some others see it as tapping into a spiritual dimension as opposed to a physical state. I think psychology fits better. I think there is only one state of reality. I look forward to tomorrow's lecture. Dick >

GERRY - Rereading again K.Armstrong's work The Great Transformation, I was struck by some of her comments in the introduction. I add those hereby: Best Regards, Gerry

'We all look for moments of ecstasy and rapture, when we inhabit our humanity more fully than usual and feel deeply touched within and lifted momentarily beyond ourselves. We are meaning-seeking creatures. ... All the traditions that were developed during the Axial Age pushed forward the frontiers of human consciousness and discovered a transcendent dimension in the core of their being, but they did not necessarily regard this as supernatural, and most of them refused to discuss it. Precisely because the experience was ineffable, the only correct attitude was reverent silence. ... nobody, they believed, should ever take any religious teaching on faith or at second hand. It was essential to question everything and to test any teaching empirically, against your personal experience. ... Today we often assume that before undertaking a religious lifestyle, we must prove to our own satisfaction that "God" or the "Absolute" exists. This is good scientific practice: first you establish a principle; only then can you apply it. But the Axial sages would say that this was to put the cart before the horse. First you must commit yourself to the ethical life; then disciplined and habitual benevolence, not metaphysical conviction, would give you intimations of the transcendence you sought. This meant that you had to be ready to change. .... The Axial sages were not interested in providing their disciples with a little edifying uplift, after which they could return with renewed vigor to their ordinary selfcentered lives. [ouch !!] Their objective was to create an entirely different kind of human being. All the sages preached a spirituality of empathy and compassion; they insisted that people must abandon their egotism and greed, their violence and unkindness.'

DICK - I like Karen Armstrong's way of expressing herself. I know just what she's driving at. Dick

GERRY Thanks, Dick, we'll have a lot to discuss. I found this after I sent my last email:

Eliade PCR xiii ... a religious phenomenon will only be recognized as such if it is grasped at its own level, that is to say, if it is studied as something religious. To try to grasp the essence of such a phenomenon by means of physiology, psychology, sociology, economics, linguistics, art, or any other study is false; it misses the one unique and irreducible element in it - the element of the sacred. Gerry

DICK - How else can one study the phenomena of religion other than as a cultural, psychological aspect? The issue is what needs does religion fill - they are varied and subtle IMO. One of those needs is the quest for the sacred. Dick

GERRY - Religion has as object the sacred - Religion may fill 'needs' - but 'if' it misses the 'sacred' it misses its 'meaning'.

A quote from an interview with Karen Armstrong:

"(To break the cycle of injustice - which is also entering the KoG) it has to start with the people near to you. .... showing justice and compassion .... is an essential part of the spiritual effort. People who get into the kingdom of heaven on the last day, according to the parable of the sheep and goats, are not the ones who have the right doctrine, who achieve the correct spiritual exercises or who adopt the correct sexual ethic, but those who take on board the words “I was hungry and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me to drink.” That’s the criterion - compassion. It is a double process, because it is also the breaking down of the ego that makes you go beyond doing the things that you like or feel comfortable doing."

For Armstrong: compassion, justice are THE expression of true religion! And only, because of the 'right' motivation behind it. "Be compassion as your heavenly Father is compassionate" - makes the connection with the 'sacred' . - The right 'meaning' is in the 'motivation'. Gerry

DICK - Gerry, to get in the last word in this dialogue, I would say that compassion and justice as described by Karen Armstrong in the last quote of hers' are the essential elements of authentic spirituality (or religion if that resonates better with one). She describes compassion in part as the breaking down of the ego - the very psychological condition I was referring to, and a very human one I might add. It is doing the right thing without collateral motives like feeling good, getting into heaven or being saved. I think it is the notion of the "sacred" or "divine" where we may part company - you see it as something transcendent while I am firmly anchored in the human psyche. Wilber would agree with your viewpoint more than mine I suspect. He says, I think, that we must look at science with the eye of science (empiricism aspect) and religion with the eye of religion (meditation, exercises like yoga etc). What Wilber and you see as transcendent I see, and I think Karen Armstrong sees, as high consciousness.

GERRY - Dick, you at once disturbed me and at the same time stimulated me to further thinking. Before we "publish" the exchange of thoughts, we need to talk again. But first, I read the following from Karen A. book The Spiral Staircase. It made me think about your opinion about her. Here it is:

283 But gradually the enveloping quiet became a positive element, almost a presence, which settled comfortably and caringly around me like a soft shawl. It seemed to hum, gently but melodiously, and to orchestrate the ideas that I was contending with, until they started to sing too, to vibrate and reveal an unexpected resonance. After a time I found that I could almost listen to the silence, which had a dimension all of its own. I started to attend to its strange and beautiful texture, which, of course, it was impossible to express in words. I discovered that I felt at home and alive in the silence, which compelled me to enter my interior world and walk around there. Without the distraction of constant conversation, the words on the page began to speak directly to my inner self. They were no longer expressing ideas that were simply interesting intellectually, but were talking directly to my own yearning and perplexity. I was no longer just grabbing concepts and facts from my books, using them as fodder for the next interview, but learning to listen to the deeper meaning that lay quietly and ineffably beyond them. Silence itself had become my teacher. This, of course, is how we should approach religious discourse. Theology is - or should be - a species of poetry, which read quickly or encountered in a hubbub of noise makes no sense. You have to open yourself to a poem with a quiet, receptive mind, in the same way as you might listen to a difficult piece of music. It is no good trying to listen to a late Beethoven quartet or read a sonnet by Rilke at a party. You have to give it your full attention, wait patiently upon it, and make an empty space for it in your mind. And finally the work declares itself to you, steals deeply into the interstices of your being, line by line, note by note, phrase by phrase, until it becomes part of you forever. Like the words of a poem, a religious idea, myth, or doctrine points beyond itself to truths that are elusive, that resist words and conceptualization. If you seize upon a poem and try to extort its meaning before you are ready, it remains opaque. If you bring your own personal agenda to bear upon it, the poem will close upon itself like a clam, because you have denied its unique and separate identity, its own inviolable holiness. I had found this to be true in my study of literature. As soon as I had stopped trying to use it to advance my career, it began to speak to me again. Now I was having exactly the same experience with theology. The religious traditions have all stressed the importance of silence. They have reminded the faithful that these truths are not capable of a simply rational interpretation. Sacred texts cannot be perused like a holy encyclopedia, for clear information about the divine. This is not the language of everyday speech or of logical, discursive prose. In some traditions, words are thought to contain the sacred in their very sound.

DICK - Thanks Gerry. That's about as eloquent as it gets and expresses well why I love poetry. I do get her point about looking at theology through the eyes of poetry. Do you remember the Simon and Garfunkle song "Sounds of Silence" from the movie The Graduate?

GERRY - Sure, I do, Dick, and I always loved that song, but it has received more meaning since. This dialogue is so great! It's captivating. Though I'll not put Wilber aside, he will get my attention, but more from a distance!
And there is this: TSS 270 The myths of the hero, for example, are not meant to give us historical information about Prometheus or Achilles or for that matter, about Jesus or the Buddha. Their purpose is to compel us to act in such a way that we bring out our own heroic potential. In the course of my studies, I have discovered that the religious quest is not about discovering "the truth" or_. "the meaning of life" but about living as intensely as possible here and now. [Cupitt] The idea is not to latch on to some superhuman personality or to "get to heaven" but to discover how to be fully human - hence the images of the perfect or enlightened man, or the deified human being. [Wink] Archetypal figures such as Muhammad, the Buddha, and Jesus become icons of fulfilled humanity. God or Nirvana is not an optional extra, tacked on to our human nature. Men and women have a potential for the divine, and are not complete unless they realize it within themselves. A passing Brahmin priest once asked the Buddha whether he was a god, a spirit, or an angel. None of these, the Buddha replied: "I am awake!" By activating a capacity that lay dormant in undeveloped men and women, he seemed to belong to a new species. In the past, my own practice of religion had diminished me, whereas true faith, I now believe, should make you more human than before.

Oct.14, '06
Gerry, it is my perception that someone who spoke in class the other day thinks too much (is trapped in his head). I don't think he gets the point of freedom; but then again maybe I am wrong. I am not saying that we can't use our minds, but in my experience I have found that I had to leave the intellect behind as well as the rules and regulations of the church. All components of the journey do not add up to an intellectual pursuit. But, it is not a totally sentimental journey either. For me, my mind (hearing the truth - discerning if it is to be mine) took me to my heart (where it felt right - intuition) and my heart lead me to my soul/self/God (homeplace). This is what I meant by giving ourselves permission to live in freedom. If I am in error, please let me know. Mary (Leisner)

Thanks, Mary, for your note. Looking back on that class, I can say there was some good exchange going on, but as you say, it was also indicative that some don't "get it" - or could it be that they can't let go of the 'intellectual', which they see as basic and essential, as if one has to understand it, or at least should be able to rationalize it, or accept it intellectually by believing. I'm sure that's what the "Science and Theology" course talks about a lot too! But as you say - and have experienced - "All components of the journey do not add up to an intellectual pursuit". Yes, the way you put it: "For me, my mind (hearing the truth - discerning if it is to be mine) took me to my heart (where it felt right - intuition) and my heart lead me to my soul/self/God (homeplace)" - is a good description of what spiritual life is about. That does not mean that everybody would describe it necessarily that way. In Exploration I mentioned that Jesus does not ask us to believe but to "seek". But for that you have to 'give yourself permission to live in freedom' (well said!). Gerry
Oct. 4, 2006
Gerry,
I am very much enjoying the book you referred us to (Jesus through Jewish Eyes). I was particularly interested to find that Chapter 8 speaks directly to my question of whether the teaching of Jesus had any influence on the evolution of the Jewish Faith. Apparently the Christian Faith that evolved from the life of Jesus did have an influence, according to Daniel Polish, and he suggests that the Christian tradition of love for the newborn baby Jesus should have meaning for Jews as well as a model for a unique form of love for God. He indicates that the known teaching of the historical Jesus would have had little affect in that his comments do not seem to be uniquely different from what others were saying in the period in which he lived. I gather that all this is without referrence to the gnostic gospels, or at least they are not mentioned. Fascinating stuff.
Jim (Patton)

Yes, Jim it is a fascinating book because it covers so many aspects. However, when you say "that the Christian tradition of love for the newborn baby Jesus should have meaning for Jews as well as a model for a unique form of love for God", it looks to me you are a presumptuous conclusion. Jews would not like any reference between the 'newborn baby Jesus' and 'love for God' - as if Jesus would be "God". But then again, it might be that's not what you had in mind. Gerry

(And Jim graciously responds:)

Gerry,

The point I understood Rabbi Polish to be making in Chapter 8, is that the intensity of love toward the baby Jesus, is he believes a transmutation of the love Christian parents feel for their own child and becomes, for them, a higher love of God. Robbi Polish first says, "But that other great love, the love of parent for child, finds no expression in the religious life of the Jewish people. There is in Judaism, no means to transmute that powerful human experience into religious affirmation. It is this religious emotional-experience, lacking in their own tradition, which Jews can recognize and appreciate in the Christian tradition." This is obviously a generous statement by Rabbi Polish. Jim

When I think of you I go to your 'Root Seeker' site. Thanks for having this wonderful site I really enjoy this so well constructed website, and you are a great teacher. Michele